PDD section 3 Item 7 WALL TYPES

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    Darguin Fortuna

    I think you are reading a section on PPD not PDD. I kept looking for this in the handbook. But glad you are digging into it and understand it better.

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    Jonathan Chertok (Edited )

    thanks darguin. i’ve enjoyed your posts. thanks also for the bump and the intel on this being PPD. i must have mixed up my acronyms. i guess this is more “generic” so it is a PPD question which makes sense.


    so - i still don’t get this.


    what basis would i have for answering a wall type as going through the ceiling as compared to just meeting it?


    i mean, for the exam i just don’t use a wall type that meets the ceiling plane as a rule in ARE?

    or is there more factual info that we can add to this? presumably through the ceiling plane is a little better for acoustics so you /should/ use this when in doubt. since this would be better..?

    i must admit i am a tad perplexed on this and unless i am missing something the answer did not seem to clarify this.

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    Darguin Fortuna

    Well there are some variables. You want partitions up to the underside if decking for acoustic and fire rating purposes. There are some partitions that are not required to go to the underside of decking because the plenum might be used for HVAC purposes or perhaps the space is a tenant fit up that keeps being changed and does not require privacy. You would go up to the ceiling in that case. There are also partitions that go to the underside of ceilings and are rated because the ceiling itself is rated the whole assembly is fire rated.

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    Jonathan Chertok (Edited )

    sorry. i should have been clearer. it is not clear to me why you could not use wall type 2 (to the ceiling) where the answer shows wall type 3 (/through/ the ceiling but not to the structure above). the answer states "Wall type 2 is not used because none of the walls shown are appropriate to stop at the ceiling".

    but i haven't seen anything in my study material that explains why this might be the case (i.e. why you would continue through the ceiling as in this case as opposed to just stopping at the ceiling).

    i mean, it is only important to the extent that i'd rather not have to guess on one or the other, assuming i have the rest correct.

     

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    Darguin Fortuna

    I think it has to do with the ceilings being separated structurally and physically. You might use a nicer ceiling outside and another at the storage. Also whats being stored there this is a different use or occupancy type it might need to be rated and separated from the rest of the business use. I have never made a continuous ceiling from storage to an office/reception group. Type three also stops dust from going through just another thought. Hope this helps.

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    Jonathan Chertok (Edited )

    yeah. i appreciate it. i just don’t have anything to hang my hat on that makes this any better than a 50-50 proposition, except to the extent that the answer here is through the ceiling for the copy room - which i guess could be good enough?
    at the same time it would be good to get other tester info on increasing my odds on that one so i understand it better.

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    Dana Parker

    I agree with Mr. Fortuna, I would use #3 if I had different ceiling types. A less expensive ACT for the copy room and perhaps something better for the corridor or adjacent space. I've only seen partitions similar to #2 at temporary rooms or full height cubicle spaces.

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    Rebecca Palmquist

    I wondered about this question too but had a different thought. Why wouldn't the storage room wall be type 4 because a storage room over 100 sf feet needs to fire-rated? 

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    Jonathan Chertok

    interesting. questions are always good. not enough here IMHO.
    is there a code citation for this if someone cared to look it up...?

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    Yvonne Strain (Edited )

    I think it's easy to lean that way Rebecca (I typically would too) but I would avoid assuming ratings unless the program specifically mentions requirements, perhaps what is being stored, etc? As for Wall Type #2, I also have seen this in reno's where continuous change is anticipated but the oh systems are to remain intact as much as possible.

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    Jonathan Chertok (Edited )

    hi yvonne,
    i’ll put wall type two in any question that is not a low wall or is not required to be acoustically separated (to ceiling) or fire rated (to ceiling). but i won’t be doing it because it makes any sense to me.
    are you saying #2 to the ceiling tile seems equally valid to you?

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    Yvonne Strain

    Jonathan, to clarify: Wall Type #3 makes the most sense to me for this application. I am just stating (& concurring w/Dana) where I have seen Wall Type #2 used in practice. For me, IMO, Wall Type #2 is the least common.

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    Jonathan Chertok (Edited )

    ok. thanks yvonne. beating the proverbial dead horse here but it is nice to be definite about such a question. so basically throw out type 2 where it meets the ceiling in these questions and just use the other three...

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    David Kaplan

    I wanted to quickly chime in here regarding the comment about storage rooms needing to be 1 HR when over 100 SF, and how it's important to be careful when applying a "real world" situation to an ARE question. 

    First, to address the code question, IBC 2012 got rid of that requirement.  Storage rooms over 100 SF is no longer listed under the Incidental Uses anymore.  Check it out.  Be careful when applying code issues to the ARE.  Additionally, we are not given any dimensions on this plan, thus, there is no way to prove or disprove that the Storage room is over 100 SF.  If you are not given that information, you can safely assume that the room's size is NOT relevant to answering the question.  If NCARB wanted you to factor in a requirement for rooms of a certain size to be fire rated when trying to select the proper walls, they would have provided you a way to determine the room’s size.  You’re not going to have to eyeball or guess anything on these tests.

    I would caution as well that this is another example of sort of needing to take yourself out of the "real world" for this exam.  You are correct that very often storage rooms are built in either rated wall construction or perhaps smoke partitions.  In my office we have projects that require us to comply with NFPA 101, and that DOES in certain building types in fact say that storage rooms of that size must be fire rated, or if sprinkled, enclosed in smoke partitions.  It trumps the Building Code in those instances.  This being said, for the purposes of answering this question, you should not take that into consideration.  The question is intended to test your knowledge on proper wall selection for acoustic separation and basic fire rating requirements.  The rationale given in the ARE Handbook says that the wall type that extends just above the ceiling helps provide some acoustic isolation between the Storage Room (which has the copier) and the other spaces, which is why it is better than the wall that goes just to the ceiling only. 

     

     

     

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    Rebecca Palmquist

    David, thank you for your thoughtful reply. It is really helpful. It's difficult to know when NCARB wants you to just answer the question and when they want you to bring information to the question. I used the size of the doors to estimate that the room could be 100 sf. I did have a question on an exam where I had to calculate the size of a room without any dimensions given but there is always the chance that it was one of those questions that was flawed and not counted. But regardless, it made me think that this was something NCARB would have us do. 

    Johnathan, just a thought, I wouldn't worry about solving this question type on the exam. I'd read each question on the exam and solve it with the information given. I think you could make some errors if you read a question and decided it was similar to #4 in the practice exam and use that to solve it. Johnathan, also remember you don't have to ace the exam, just pass it. Good luck everyone!

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    Jonathan Chertok

    hi david
    nice. can we double vote with the up button. can we get free coffees (or something more significant out of those votes)? super post.
    first off i really hope folks like rebecca will continue to post. it is important to air these types of questions simply for candidates to test well.
    i must admit that there is a bit of “low level” cognitive dissonance about this. in studying i keep making a mental note to remember totally random things (like what is a “pid”) as a kind of hangover from the 4.0 exam (which was heavy on the random facts and parsing the somewhat indirect wording). but once you disconnected your brain stem these questions (ignoring the vignettes) were manageable (at least as a native english speaker).
    however, i can’t quite figure this issue out in 5. i keep hearing that it is based on experience etc etc and then i review questions like this and hear input such as yours (maybe i missing something) and it seems to me the answer is basically whatever the answer is. i can’t really find anything i would consider of “weight” here.
    i mean, i’ll hope i’ll get this question right (i expect) but it won’t be from study material or from knowledge of acoustic ceilings or acoustics or building code or commercial construction or tenant finish outs.
    speaking strategically - aside from reviewing these questions and making sure you are familiar with the layout of the material in the tabs - what is your state of mind in testing? don’t get tricked by the wording? zen mind answer with your practical experience? highlight “significant words” and answer accordingly? NEVER think beyond a surface gloss on a question? if you are pondering “real world application” (like this) stop and re-read the question?
    all? none of the above?
    mostly just curious so i know what hat to put on before testing. but i guess if this question is an indication you need to think about what they are thinking about and this one still seems unclear to me.
    i guess there must be some acoustic ceiling tile institute standard for this or it is a lot less than that.

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    Jonathan Chertok

    wait. it’s the copier?

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    Rebecca Palmquist (Edited )

    Hi Johnathan, I wish I had more insight for you but I have some of the same questions. I took all the exams and passed all on the first try (I'm on the forum because I'm helping others pass the exam now). My strategy was to answer the ones I knew and skip (guess and flag) the ones I didn't and not sweat it too much. I just kept in the back of my mind that I needed to pass the exam, not ace it.

    My strategy often looked like this: read the question (not closely at first, just to get the gist), then read the answers, then go back up the question for a closer read to find, "What are they asking here?" and to pull out key details that will help me. Using this question as an example, I made the error in focusing on the word "Storage" in the graphic therefore fire protection was on my mind and NOT acoustics (storage rooms don't have acoustic requirements as far as I know). I didn't pay enough attention to the text where they say that room is where the copier is. So I read into part of it and it overrode what the question was ultimately about - acoustical separation. Every plan I've ever worked on used the label "Workroom" to describe a room with a copier and files. If I would have read the question with "What are they asking here?" in mind, I would have had a better chance of overwriting my bias. In my experience, overthinking was a greater problem than underthinking on these exams. 

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    Rebecca Palmquist

    Also, focusing on the NCARB practice questions too much could be an error. As someone pointed out to me, they are probably sample questions because they aren't actual questions because they are flawed in some way. I would use the sample questions to get familiar with the item types and not much more than that.

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    Jonathan Chertok (Edited )

    hey jessica. thanks for the help. also thanks to everyone else here. i know it got a bit long in the tooth.

    so - my strategy is to pay very close attention to the sample questions because i think they show a "test typology". most of these almost without fail i would have gotten wrong if i had not had a chance to study them. my feeling is that there will be the same "typology" on the test. could be wrong but that is my feeling.

    my problem with the questions (and the reason i am focusing on them) is that to me 5.0 feels a lot like that movie by the Eames' called powers of ten. there is so much zooming in and out of scales and with items of importance that i personally find it almost impossible to determine what is most important and what is not. and i don't find common sense to work. i just don't. i think there is too much vagueness and "implicit grading" on these when all it would take to clear up the confusion is to ask a direct question by adding a single additional sentence. <part of me wants to think they do this on the test and these are deliberately vague. but from spending time on the forum i have to say i more than sort of doubt this.>

    in this case, that could be something along the lines of - "the client is somewhat concerned about noise from the copier" with some additional explanation or something. i just see this as basically a 50/50 tossup until i see that in the example they are not grading the "to ceiling plane" wall as a correct answer. then i have to figure out why. then i can answer the question.

    same goes for the content. i find myself banging back and forth between continent-wide vapor barrier issues related to climatic regions then immediately to whether or not a copier in a 100 sf storage room is going to be a noise issue or whether intead building a shorter wall will be considered the lesser of two weevils. i mean, just ask me a question.

    also, the jumping back and forth (now that you sort of allude to it and now that i think about it) between DRAWING content and words that basically contradict what i see in the drawings i find to be a deliberate part of the test. i find this to be "non-architectural". and since i think architecturally i have a problem understanding it. it's confusing.

     

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    Dana Parker

    yesterday I'm in a conference room at my job. I noticed I could hear the people in the next conference room. I looked up and noticed the partition was like #2. I was kind of surprised because of how I replied to the original post.. But then again this is a government building, so I wouldn't expect more. :-)

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    Rebecca Palmquist

    Was it caulked?

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